John W. Macy, Jr. FEMA Director Looks at Fire Service
features
When the United States Fire Administration (USFA) was shifted from the Department of Commerce to the newly organized Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) last April 1, questions arose about the fate of the USFA in the new agency. Several months later, President Carter appointed John W. Macy, Jr., as the first director of FEMA. Interviewed by Dick Sylvia, associate editor of Fire Engineering, Macy answer these questions by describing ways he believes FEMA can assist the nation’s fire service through the USFA and its National Fire Academy.
Q. As the director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, what do you see as the major objectives of the National Fire Academy in the next few years?
A. I see the major objective as that of increasing the capacity of the fire service at the local level. To that end, I see the very strong emphasis on the training of trainers. How do we multiply the breed so that there are more trainers?
Obviously, it can’t all be here (at Emmitsburg). I see this as a pilot training center in the various specialities that are necessary for effective fire fighting. I see this as a center that emphasizes the management of the fire force, the development of the special skills that are inherent in the fire fighting program.
I see emphasis here on fire prevention because the whole theme of the agency (FEMA) is: What can we do to reduce those hazards?
So I see it as a multiple curriculum with a variety of courses t hat are responsive to the needs of the fire service as identified by those in the service.
A. Are you aware that the train-the-trainer mode has been endorsed by the National Volunteer Fire Council in the last two months?
A. Yes, I have high expectations of the National Volunteer Fire Council. This is going to be a very useful communications system -just as 1 look upon the relationship with the other national fire institutions, such as the union, as sources of communication and advice.
I think that ultimately we have to make our own decisions. We can’t bargain on what we’re going to do, but I would hope that what we undertake will have their support and their active participation.
Funding of student expenses
Q. Do you feel that the fire academy in the next year or so will be able to fund the expenses of students attending the academy?
A. Well, what we’re planning is 75 percent, and certainly our budget is based on the capability to do that. I have no reason to believe that there’s going to be any hesitancy on the part of Congress to appropriate sufficient funds for this.
There was some skepticism about the expenses for the academy on the part of the OMB (Office of Management and Budget), but I think they’ve been satisfied. They’ve approved the funds for this. There was a necessary amendment to the appropriation for this year to take care of the operation here.
Our interest will be to keep a close eye on the cost. I am very conscious of the fact that these are tax dollars and we feel this is a way in which federal resources can be used to increase local capability. If the local community is required to fund student costs 100 percent, I think participation in the academy will be quite limited.
Q. You have spoken twice today about EMS and the emphasis you are going to give it. Have you specific ideas as to how you will provide greater support for EMS in the fire service?
A. Well, I think we might very well try to reach a higher level of capability and so I mention it here because it could very well be part of the curriculum, or if not part of the curriculum this could be the focus of work on the curriculum that would be made available. But I also see it as having a very strong interrelationship with the medical preparation for other emergencies. For example, there are medical aspects of recovery in earthquakes, floods or any number of other instances.
After the Three Mile Island incident, we’ve become very conscious of potassium iodine as a treatment for those who had exposure to radiation. Who’s likely to administer it? The fire service. I see trying to work this aspect of the fire service into a more active focus in the service.
What we’re going to do in FEMA is to look to Gordon Vickery (USFA administrator) and the fire service to take the lead in emergency medical service for all emergencies because that’s where the greatest capability is. I feel also that this is a humanitarian cause that we’re attempting to serve in emergency management. I’m very keen about this aspect of the fire program that has broad application.
Women in fire service
Q. I noticed in a few of your talks that you hope to see women take a greater part in the fire service. How do you think that USFA can promote this?
A. I think the USFA has already taken a significant first step with the recent conference in Washington. They had a three-day conference and brought in all the various groups. They had a discussion of some of the problems, and I’m just wholeheartedly in support of this.
I understand there are only 70 women in the paid fire service at the present time. I don’t think we know how many volunteers there are. I would hope that we could help with a campaign that would point out the capability of women who serve and how the problems that are frequently cited are not as severe as they seem to be.
I think we’re just neglecting a very competent portion of our total human resources and let’s face it, the fire service has been one of the last to recognize that women can be a part of the operations.
Q. Do you think that the women in the fire service, if their stories were known, would be helpful in promoting the campaign?
A. I think they would. I think we need to do more to collect stories. It’s always been my feeling that when you’re trying to crack barriers in employment, what you need are what I call strategic placements with the stories of those women. Placements need to be disseminated. It seems to me you could have a film on successful instances of this kind or films that identify some of the problems.
I think our leadership is one of persuasion, one of perhaps some grants to test conditions where there are problems.
Q. What can the USFA do to reduce the nation’s arson problem?
A. In the arson area, the conclusion we’re reaching is that many of the problems are management problems and the mayor or the county executive has not been able to get the resources of the community to work together. I think another need is training.
Then there is this whole business of saturation inspections. You notice structures that look as though they’re targets for arson and you make inspections and do a little research on who owns these buildings and their financial situation. It’s an intelligence operation.
Q. This is what’s happening in New Haven now. They have finished the first phase in which they have put the fire record into the computer so they know what happened on each street. Now, with a little money from the USFA and about $90,000 from an insurance company, they’re going into the second phase in which they hope to predict arson targets through computerized data on the number of fire, building and health code violations against a structure. They also will know how many times a building has changed hands in the last year or so, whether there are any tax or other liens on the property and what the insurance is on that property.
A. Case studies like that ought to be disseminated. You ought to get the New Haven people to come to a meeting that perhaps is financed by the fire administration to tell their story and answer questions.
How did you get the public works guy to get in on this? How did you get the building inspector to cooperate, and how to you get enough money to get a building inspector? That’s what many a mayor will question. How do you get the insurance companies’ cooperation?
Again, I think if we can start to turn out some case studies, this will be very beneficial. I think highlighting the arson wherever we can with various groups is important. I’d like to get some of the community groups supporting this. We want to work with groups like the League of Women Voters, veterans groups and civic clubs. This is the way you would get to the business community.
Community involvement vital
Q. In other words, you favor the approach that any reduction in destructive events or disasters must start with the involvement of the community itself.
A. Absolutely. We’ve got to be careful that we don’t inflate our egos and think that everything is going to happen from here, because it isn’t. It’s going to happen at the local level.
What we’ve got to do is help develop an environment with the local level so some of these t hings can come to pass. We don’t care who gets the credit, and as long as we don’t care, we feel that a great deal of progress can take place.
Q. How do you help create it—through money grants or through the proliferation of courses?
A. I think you do it through a number of ways. You can do it through training, educational materials that you prepare, creating a dialogue with readers, by trying to call the attention of the media to it, by possibly putting out some checklists, through using some technical assistance, and by seeing if you can’t perhaps use the regional staffs for this.
We’ll have a regional fire contact man in each of the 10 federal regions. He’ll be working with the regional director in developing fire consciousness among the rest of our staff, with other feds, and the state and local people. One of our responsibilities in FEMA is really to try to bring about a greater degree of coordination in the federal effort itself— orchestrate the various agencies so that they aren’t all flying off in different directions.
On arson, for example, we want to work very closely with the Law Enforcement Assistance Agency to see if they can’t work with the USFA in some joint efforts in doing something about the arson problem. And it seems to me that there’s at least some indirect interest on the part of the environmental agencies.
So it’s a matter of seeing how you can orchestrate these people so that they’re all playing from the same score— hopefully having a harmonious result—and not have the federal presence intruding. I would hope that our antennas are sensitive enough to pick up the needs of the community without imposing on it. One of our great needs is to make sure that we have a system of communications with the people who have the ultimate responsibility at the local level.
Management training
Q. About that Federal Management Institute that will share the NFA campus, just what is it?
A. It will be the principal national training center for emergency management. We will transfer from Battle Creek (Mich.) the educational training effort that existed t here for civil defense. We are broadening the base to cover the full scope of emergencies that are the mission of the agency itself (FEMA).
We will have management sessions dealing with the leadership of the various levels of emergency management. We’d like to be able to mix the federal, state, and local people on common problems. Then there will be specialized programs in various areas, such as the nuclear area, hazardous materials area, and other emergency causes which are likely to be a part of the emergency management effort.
We’ll continue what has tradit ionally been civil defense, but we’ll try to give it a broader base and not confine it just to the holocaust delivered by the enemy from afar.
Q. Do you think that the location of the second organization on this campus will improve the standing of the National Fire Academy with the budget people?
A. Yes, because you see what will happen will be that we’ll be able to increase the number of manned days of educational exposure that will take take place here. The general planning, when we are finally operating at full capacity, will be to have 300 fire academy students in residence and about 100 for the emergency management institute, so we’ll have 400 adult students in residence here.
It will be possible to use many of the facilities on a shared basis, but they’ll have separate buildings and a separate identity. It will in no way overshadow the separate ident ify of the National Fire Academy. It’ll be possible to make some savings on support activities by having both of them located here and it will permit a complete utilization of this fine plant. There are 14 buildings here and 108 acres, and I think in this way, it’s sound management, and should result in some cost saving as well.
Civil defense issue
Q. One of the fears of the fire service in coming into FEMA was that the USFA, with its relatively small staff, might be overwhelmed by the civil defense group. How do you look at that?
A. I view it as my management assignment to see to it that that does not happen and to provide the kind of organizational setting in which the fire agency is able to pursue its mission with the support of the agency.
In contrast to the situation that existed in the Department of Commerce, where the secretary really seemed to have no time for the fire agency, I intend to be a downfield blocker for the fire service ball carrier to make sure that the holes are open and progress is made—to provide whatever added testimony I can offer in support of their ventures. But even more important, I feel that the influence of the fire service upon other emergency management is going to be not only important to the fire service, but it is going to improve those other activities.
I feel, for example, that fire is a component in many of these other hazards. I feel that the fire fighters are the first line of response and that response should be tied in with whatever other response is developed.
I feel that the fire service is a universal facility that exists in every community, no matter what its size, so that it is the first building block in the structure for emergency management. Therefore, it seems to me that rather than the arrangement diminishing or overshadowing the role of the fire service, I think it amplifies it, it extends it into the very quarters where the effectiveness can be increased by the association.
As far as the fire organization is concerned, it has come intact to FEMA. The overhead services that were provided hy the Commerce Department are now to be provided by FEMA with a much tighter focus in relation to emergency management.
I have a daily staff meeting with the top six program managers, including the administrator of the fire administration. In many ways, this provides an escape from isolation for the fire service, which hopefully will be beneficial to us.
It seems to me that this exchange is really changing CD because CD has tended to be focused on rather narrow preparation for a nuclear attack. Some people have said it’s been like trying to sell cancer. Now the emergency management scope covers those natural emergencies that everybody knows are likely to come sooner or later. As a consequence, there’s a reality of preparation, rather than the terribly theoretical and terribly haunting approach which has not been the case in the past.
Q. As director of FEMA, how do you view your relationship to the U. S. Fire Administration?
A. Gordon Vickery is such a great man in this field. As I say, I’m there to give him whatever support he needs in getting it done. I think we have a rare opportunity.
We’re both activists and we’re not going to be satisfied with a lot of studies. We want to make something happen. It’s difficult to make things happen in government, but I feel that this is where experience—just knowing how to do it—sometimes is more important than intellect.
The man we heard earlier today, Senator Warren Magnuson, really has not had his due from the critics or commentators. He has become a master of the process, and what he has been able to contribute to the public interest, has never been fully recognized outside of his own state. It’s the others who grandstand, he gets things done.
As far as I’m concerned, we’re going to get things done, and other people can take the credit. We’ll be just as happy.
